so if i join a blob of gaggling pelicans and they leave thanks to my sloppy flying, is it considered harassment if i follow them into the next thermal? What about circling with bald eagles?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2-iowa-pilots-charged-with-harassing-migrating-birds-by-flying-small-planes-low-over-lake/2012/04/30/gIQAxqv8rT_story.html

On 5/7/2012 11:51 AM, Tony wrote:
> so if i join a blob of gaggling pelicans and they leave thanks to my sloppy flying, is it considered harassment if i follow them into the next thermal? What about circling with bald eagles?
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2-iowa-pilots-charged-with-harassing-migrating-birds-by-flying-small-planes-low-over-lake/2012/04/30/gIQAxqv8rT_story.html

Tony,

I may be THE Original Citizen to have been threatened (in writing) by 'The
Bird Police.'

This was back ca. 1990 when I was (twice, via registered letters) informed by
some clueless, chair-bound USFWS bureaucrat that I likely had 'disturbed'
various raptors (endangered and otherwise), and any repetition WOULD result in
jail time up to 10 years and fines up to $100,000 per occurrence, and
confiscation of property (i.e. the sailplane). I wrote the jerk a polite,
civil, informative (at least *I* thought it was, ha ha) letter poking holes in
his various arguments (starting with it all being no better than 2nd-hand
information), which is why I got the 2nd (entirely unrepentant, further
threatening) letter.

Being SSB's newsletter editor then, I also put all 3 communications into the
newsletter without editorial comment. Sadly, pre-internet...

Furtherly sad to say, 'the Bird Police' have not gone away or even lessened
their zeal. (What a surprise...NOT!!!) Thank 'the drug war' for this sort of
expanding abuse of the citizenry and unconstitutional aggression (I was
threatened with 'the fact of confiscation' PRIOR to being charged with
anything) on the part of government.

I wish I'd kept the letters, because today people are skeptical, but about 10
years ago I mailed them to a non-pilot, younger brother...because he didn't
believe me!

Bob - apparently convicted but not yet charged felon - W.

I had no idea you were such a miscreant Bob! Obviously I need to do a better job screening my chase crew in the future.

Speaking of bird police I'd like to eradicate the flocks of geese in our neighborhood by the river. They make a mess everywhere and it is claimed they are protected as a migratory species. But guess what? They don't migrate!

Another strategy I've considered proposing is that instead of killing the geese we kill the people who feed the geese. There is a reason I'm not in charge :)

On Monday, May 7, 2012 2:26:20 PM UTC-5, BobW wrote:
> On 5/7/2012 11:51 AM, Tony wrote:
> > so if i join a blob of gaggling pelicans and they leave thanks to my sloppy flying, is it considered harassment if i follow them into the next thermal? What about circling with bald eagles?
> >
> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2-iowa-pilots-charged-with-harassing-migrating-birds-by-flying-small-planes-low-over-lake/2012/04/30/gIQAxqv8rT_story.html
>
> Tony,
>
> I may be THE Original Citizen to have been threatened (in writing) by 'The
> Bird Police.'
>
> This was back ca. 1990 when I was (twice, via registered letters) informed by
> some clueless, chair-bound USFWS bureaucrat that I likely had 'disturbed'
> various raptors (endangered and otherwise), and any repetition WOULD result in
> jail time up to 10 years and fines up to $100,000 per occurrence, and
> confiscation of property (i.e. the sailplane). I wrote the jerk a polite,
> civil, informative (at least *I* thought it was, ha ha) letter poking holes in
> his various arguments (starting with it all being no better than 2nd-hand
> information), which is why I got the 2nd (entirely unrepentant, further
> threatening) letter.
>
> Being SSB's newsletter editor then, I also put all 3 communications into the
> newsletter without editorial comment. Sadly, pre-internet...
>
> Furtherly sad to say, 'the Bird Police' have not gone away or even lessened
> their zeal. (What a surprise...NOT!!!) Thank 'the drug war' for this sort of
> expanding abuse of the citizenry and unconstitutional aggression (I was
> threatened with 'the fact of confiscation' PRIOR to being charged with
> anything) on the part of government.
>
> I wish I'd kept the letters, because today people are skeptical, but about 10
> years ago I mailed them to a non-pilot, younger brother...because he didn't
> believe me!
>
> Bob - apparently convicted but not yet charged felon - W.

If they are like most other non migrating geese, a sock with batteries is a
lot quieter than a 10 gauge :D

Pete

"Tony" > wrote in message
news:27320343.2063.1336419510676.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynbs30...
>I had no idea you were such a miscreant Bob! Obviously I need to do a
>better job screening my chase crew in the future.
>
> Speaking of bird police I'd like to eradicate the flocks of geese in our
> neighborhood by the river. They make a mess everywhere and it is claimed
> they are protected as a migratory species. But guess what? They don't
> migrate!
>
> Another strategy I've considered proposing is that instead of killing the
> geese we kill the people who feed the geese. There is a reason I'm not in
> charge :)
>
> On Monday, May 7, 2012 2:26:20 PM UTC-5, BobW wrote:
>> On 5/7/2012 11:51 AM, Tony wrote:
>> > so if i join a blob of gaggling pelicans and they leave thanks to my
>> > sloppy flying, is it considered harassment if i follow them into the
>> > next thermal? What about circling with bald eagles?
>> >
>> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2-iowa-pilots-charged-with-harassing-migrating-birds-by-flying-small-planes-low-over-lake/2012/04/30/gIQAxqv8rT_story.html
>>
>> Tony,
>>
>> I may be THE Original Citizen to have been threatened (in writing) by
>> 'The
>> Bird Police.'
>>
>> This was back ca. 1990 when I was (twice, via registered letters)
>> informed by
>> some clueless, chair-bound USFWS bureaucrat that I likely had 'disturbed'
>> various raptors (endangered and otherwise), and any repetition WOULD
>> result in
>> jail time up to 10 years and fines up to $100,000 per occurrence, and
>> confiscation of property (i.e. the sailplane). I wrote the jerk a polite,
>> civil, informative (at least *I* thought it was, ha ha) letter poking
>> holes in
>> his various arguments (starting with it all being no better than 2nd-hand
>> information), which is why I got the 2nd (entirely unrepentant, further
>> threatening) letter.
>>
>> Being SSB's newsletter editor then, I also put all 3 communications into
>> the
>> newsletter without editorial comment. Sadly, pre-internet...
>>
>> Furtherly sad to say, 'the Bird Police' have not gone away or even
>> lessened
>> their zeal. (What a surprise...NOT!!!) Thank 'the drug war' for this sort
>> of
>> expanding abuse of the citizenry and unconstitutional aggression (I was
>> threatened with 'the fact of confiscation' PRIOR to being charged with
>> anything) on the part of government.
>>
>> I wish I'd kept the letters, because today people are skeptical, but
>> about 10
>> years ago I mailed them to a non-pilot, younger brother...because he
>> didn't
>> believe me!
>>
>> Bob - apparently convicted but not yet charged felon - W.
>

Like many soaring pilots, I have shared dozens of thermals with raptors. Mostly, they seem happy for me to show them where the lift is.

Years ago, on another continent, I came across a huge flock of cranes flying between thermals at around 12,000 feet. As slow as I could fly, I still caught up with them. When I was about twenty feet behind them, they peeled away, let me through the gap and then re-formed behind me.

I think it's pretty hard for a sailplane to harass birds. Flying single-engine planes ten feet over a lake full of migratory birds is another matter entirely and well worth some ass-kicking.

Mike

On Monday, May 7, 2012 1:51:39 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> so if i join a blob of gaggling pelicans and they leave thanks to my sloppy flying, is it considered harassment if i follow them into the next thermal? What about circling with bald eagles?
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2-iowa-pilots-charged-with-harassing-migrating-birds-by-flying-small-planes-low-over-lake/2012/04/30/gIQAxqv8rT_story.html

Hmm, maybe we are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe we can leverage the alleged decline in SSA membership and lobby for 'endangered species' status for glider pilots ;-).

Frank (TA)

On Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:28:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Monday, May 7, 2012 1:51:39 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> > so if i join a blob of gaggling pelicans and they leave thanks to my sloppy flying, is it considered harassment if i follow them into the next thermal? What about circling with bald eagles?
> >
> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2-iowa-pilots-charged-with-harassing-migrating-birds-by-flying-small-planes-low-over-lake/2012/04/30/gIQAxqv8rT_story.html
>
> Hmm, maybe we are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe we can leverage the alleged decline in SSA membership and lobby for 'endangered species' status for glider pilots ;-).
>
> Frank (TA)

that would give me a legal justification for denying all summertime non-soaring event invitations. I wouldn't complain.

In the 1980's, I was charged with "molesting geese in a federal
wildlife preserve" by a University Rent-A-Cop while riding my bike
across a snow-covered soccer field on the campus of Colorado State
University. The flock of hundreds of geese parted, I rode through,
they moved back to their original location. No flapping of wings, no
flight took place. A federal felony.

Luckily the judge determined that I had been charged with the
incorrect law code # and threw the case out. To say he was ****ed at
the waste of his time is an understatement.

Never underestimate the stupidity of humans in positions of power.

At 20:14 08 May 2012, wrote:
>In the 1980's, I was charged with "molesting geese in a federal
>wildlife preserve" by a University Rent-A-Cop while riding my bike
>across a snow-covered soccer field on the campus of Colorado State
>University. The flock of hundreds of geese parted, I rode through,
>they moved back to their original location. No flapping of wings, no
>flight took place. A federal felony.
>
>Luckily the judge determined that I had been charged with the
>incorrect law code # and threw the case out. To say he was ****ed at
>the waste of his time is an understatement.
>
>Never underestimate the stupidity of humans in positions of power.

I would have thought that the only time you could "harrass" birds is when
they are nesting. We do not have a species in the UK which nests in flight
so we don't have a rule about that. We do observe restrictions around
breeding sites but as these are at the coast and on the ground we do not
have a great deal of reason to go there. Having said that one club in
Scotland borders borders on a large Protected site where thousands of geese
winter every year. They co-exist quite happily.
I have had the pleasure of soaring with buzzards, Marsh harriers, Peregrine
Falcon, and on one accasion a Golden Eagle, they did not seem to mind at
all that I could not soar as well as they could

>And cats are major culprits, too, far more birds killed (though with
>different demographics) than wind turbines.

> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

only tweety birds though, and they aren't protected as migratory species. plus there is no proof that it was the cat because the tweety bird only tawt he saw a puddy cat, he wasn't sure.

Beyond the common sense of flying around big birds, here are a few
tips on flying with raptors:

1) Approach raptors from below or beside. It is a perceived threat to
sneak up on them from behind (they have forward binocular vision) or
from above (where a rival raptor or eagle would initiate an attack
from).
2) If you avoid scaring or ****ing off the raptor, you may find
yourself with a flying partner for a few minutes, and it can be a
rewarding experience. I've "team flown" with a red tail in formation
once after properly getting acquainted with it.
3) Be careful with California Condors- they can be clumsy birds when
young. Don't approach closer than you would a low-time glider pilot.
4) Large undulating swoops by golden eagles are a territorial display.
If you see this, give the eagle some room. I saw one pounce on the
horizontal stab of a glider in Montana once that failed to heed its
display.

Sounds like some biologists have been overzealous or uninformed, but
that doesn't mean that glider pilots have been completely clean here.
If you give springtime nests an appropriate berth and make sure you
aren't harassing them, at least you will have done your due
diligence.

Chad
PS. the overwhelming majority of raptor conservation is accomplished
through volunteers, non-profit organizations, zoos, and foundation
grants, not taxpayer dollars.

On 9 touko, 08:52, 4Z > wrote:
> Beyond the common sense of flying around big birds, here are a few
> tips on flying with raptors:

I would like to offer a tip to all of you. There was an accident last
autumn in Spain where DuoDiscus was flying close to a griffon vulture.
It collided with a tip of the elevator, instantly ripping the whole
elevator and half of the vertical tail surfaces off. Both pilots
jumped, but as they where flying over hill top the altitude was too
low for opening parachutes. So, my tip is: keep some distance, bird
collision can kill you. Go to zoo if you want to spot birds close by.

At 03:12 09 May 2012, Tony wrote:
>>And cats are major culprits, too, far more birds killed (though
with
>>different demographics) than wind turbines.
>
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to
".us" to
>> email me)
>
>only tweety birds though, and they aren't protected as migratory
species.
>plus there is no proof that it was the cat because the tweety bird
only
>tawt he saw a puddy cat, he wasn't sure.
>

I'm afraid my cat brings me "proof" every few days. At least I
assume that's where the small piles of feathers come from...

In my experience - Most birds are unconcerned about the glider.

However, especially when flying in the mountains it is easy to intrude
on territories and get near nests or roosting sites. Many of the bigger
vultures and eagles get somewhat upset if you do this.

I know of at least three vulture / glider collisions in the last 10
years in South Africa. These are endangered birds, so zero would be a
lot better number. Especially as they are big and hard enough to cause
substantial damage, and potentially endanger our life.

Personal rule is to see and avoid - I will only join vultures well below
them. If they come and join me that is wonderful, and I have had the
pleasure of flying with loads of swallows, the odd Hadeda Ibis, lots of
Cape White-backed vultures, a Tawny Eagle, a Gymnogene and a Bearded
Vulture...
Some birds - for us the Bearded Vultures and black eagles get very
aggressive and territorial - best to avoid for conservation,
consideration and safety reasons. The one I flew with came and joined me
and a couple of smaller vultures in the "only game in town" thermal in
the flatlands.

A great memory and privilege. But not to be actively sought out - we are
the intruders in their space and should be respectful. Let the bird make
any advances - That way we get to retain the privilege of flying in the
protected spaces, because we do not make noise, and scare the locals...

Unfortunately the uninformed, insane, random rule making will continue -
and we need to be careful. Notably the local National Parks guys
randomly imposed a rule that "no aircraft" was allowed to overfly any
part of the conservation area at a "height" less than 2,500 feet higher
than the highest point in the conservation area. Similar reasons of
disturbing the peace, and scaring the birds given. similarly no distance
measuring method was advanced. This of course makes it quite difficult
to operate legally from the runways inside these areas. Let alone to fly
the mountain ridges...

Fortunately some sense has prevailed, but it is not over yet. I doubt it
will ever be over. Only hope is to keep it under control.

Bruce
--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

On 5/8/2012 11:12 PM, Tony wrote:
>> And cats are major culprits, too, far more birds killed (though with
>> different demographics) than wind turbines.
>
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>> email me)
>
> only tweety birds though, and they aren't protected as migratory species. plus there is no proof that it was the cat because the tweety bird only tawt he saw a puddy cat, he wasn't sure.

Take a look a the Pease (Portsmouth, NH) approach plate.

http://boxav8r.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/pease.jpg

Tony "6N"